Debate on Pachamama: Our Lady or False idol? (Copy)

This informal debate took place on a Telegram channel in which a Francis Apologist was saying that the Pachamama incident of 2019 was blown out of proportion since it was merely “Our Lady of the Amazon.” This individual was referencing a recent Mel Gibson interview on Joe Rogan’s podcast in which Gibson criticized the Pachamama incident. The individual’s comments will be preceded by ML. Mine will be preceded by ROTK.

ML: Mel got the Pachamama story so wrong.  Pope Francis didn't bring the statue. The Amazonian contingent brought it and it was handed to Pope Francis by a lady who said clearly in Spanish "Our Lady of the Amazon" (they never referred to the statue as Pachamama. It was called that by the media and even repeated by Pope Francis himself). Some Catholics don't like the facts getting in the way of a good story.

ROTK: Here are three photos showing that the idol was referred to as Pachamama from the Vatican’s own Communications Department as well as the Pachamama Alliance which inspired and promoted the event.

ML: It doesn't matter what those with agendas in the church say it was. The Amazonians clearly said it was "Our Lady of the Amazon" (in Spanish) as they passed it to him Are we going to call them liars? Question their integrity? On what basis do we have a right to do that? Isn't that calumny? Trent Horn mentions you can clearly hear the lady say "Nuestra Senora de la Amazonia". He also says he's seen no evidence that the Amazonians have been treating it as a pagan idol. Anyway, you can listen for yourself.

ROTK: Some said that and others said it was Pachamama. The Vatican clearly addressed it as Pachamama as did Francis, as you said. It's not calumny. It's just stating what Francis and the Vatican thought about it. For example, Francis said it was Pachamama. You say someone there said it was Our Lady. You're not accusing Francis of calumny for that. It's just that if someone thought it was Our Lady, they were misinformed. Francis clearly called it Pachamama, and the heads of Vatican Communications for the event did not say it was Our Lady. Might as well trust Francis and the Vatican on that.

ML: You need to listen to the Trent Horn clip, he plays the audioclip of the woman saying "Nuestra Senora de la Amazonia". I can't make it any clearer than that. That's what the Amazonians say she was to them. As Trent says, he's going to take them at their word (as am I). What Pope Francis, Vigano, Taylor Marshall, the media et. al says about it doesn't change the fact that the original intention was as an image of Our Lady.

ROTK: I've heard the clip before. No offense to Trent Horn, but I think we should trust Francis and the Vatican on their own event, not what Horn says. It wasn't his event. He is a great apologist but he should trust Francis more on his own assessment of his own events. Catholics get afraid of admitting things like Pachamama was a scandal, but it just means we need to pray for the hierarchy since we are in an apostasy from the top down. Pachamama is no worse than the 1986 Assisi Meetings of John Paul II, or the Interfaith services of Benedict XVI.

ML: It's not what Trent said... it's what SHE said.

ROTK: I get that, but my point is that she could have that thought and is entitled to, as a Catholic of the region. But Francis and the Vatican did not treat the idol as Our Lady. And it was their event. So she is entitled to want to think it is Our Lady, but the Vatican was clear it was not. And it is their event at the end of the day. This is like when Catholics try to give Vatican II a positive spin even when the hierarchy chooses to interpret things differently. If it is their event, let them tell us what it means to them. If they say it is Pachamama, then it is. If that bothers Catholics, then pray for the hierarchy.

ML: We all know that Pope Francis gets thing wrong all the time  Why are we suddenly trusting him implicitely here?

ROTK: Precisely because of your first sentence. He gets things wrong. And Pachamama was a scandal. Just proves the point.

ML: The Vatican clearly got it wrong

ROTK: Then we should reject the event and be consistent. It's their event, they say it's Pachamama. So we should be clear that they are wrong in allowing a Pachamama to be bowed down to. But it's not for us to interpret their own event. They are entitled to hold whatever events they want and promote what they want. No need to make excuses for it.

ML: It may have been a scandal. But it didn't need to be. Worse than the way the Vatican handled it, was the way the trad media fanned the flames and never reported what the Amazonians intentions were. So it wasn't the Amazonians event. You're just going to ignore them? What their intentions were?

ROTK: You are citing a single Amazonian woman who is hard to hear. The Pachamama Alliance represents the Amazonians and they promoted the event and they said it was Pachamama. As did Francis and the Vatican. You are ignoring the Amazonians as a whole by citing a brief audio of a single person. I think that one woman was a Catholic who wanted to take a Pachamama statue and see it as being reinterpreted as Our Lady, which even then is hard to do given the grotesque look of the statue. But the event itself was for Pachamama. You just can't ignore the people who put the event together and promoted it. It's their event. You can't say they misunderstood their own event.

ML: If you can provide any evidence that the Amazonian Catholic Church said the statues were not Our Lady but rather Pachamama, I will stand corrected because I missed that one.

ROTK: Can you provide evidence of that statue being called Our Lady of the Amazon prior to the event?

ML: I'm going to be charitable towards them rather than automatically suspicious. The only time we have of them referring to the statue at all was at the event. And they called her Our Lady. If you want to decide otherwise and cling to another narrative then that's your business (and sin in my opinion). I don't have anything else to say on the matter. And the Pachamama Alliance are not even Catholic.

ROTK: Just proves my point again about it being a scandal. They co sponsored the event with the Vatican. Both sides say its Pachamama, and you are saying they misunderstood their own event. It's like saying you're throwing a birthday party at your house, and someone tells you you're wrong and that it's really a graduation party. Even though you maintain it's a birthday party and the invitations all say its a birthday party. I'm just stating what the Vatican and Francis said it was. There is no narrative. It's just what the event was. Here is an Amazonian Bishop saying it represents fertility, woman, life, not Our Lady. Bishop David Guinea of the Amazonian Catholic Church: "Those who used this symbol wished it to reflect fertility, to women, to life, the life present among the Amazonian people and Amazonia as an entity full of life. I don’t think we need to make connections with the Virgin Mary or with a pagan element." Here is the approved image of Our Lady of the Amazon.

ML: Let's go with what the bishop says. He said it's NOT a pagan image. It represents fertility, woman, life. What's wrong with those things? Are we not to represent those things? They also had boats at the ceremony representing their mode of transport. Is that wrong as well?

ROTK: You asked for evidence that the Amazonian Catholic Church said the statues were not Our Lady. So the Bishop says it is not. Do you agree with this?

ML: The bishop said "probably" which is hardly definitive. But either way, I can accept it. How does this make it an idol that needs destroying and creating a scandal?

ROTK: At least you now see it is not "Our Lady of the Amazon." So if it is not Our Lady, then who are people bowing down to at the event?

ML: You need to worship something for it to be an idol and there was no evidence of them doing that. They are probably bowing to God.

ROTK: So here they bow to the statue. Are you saying the statue represents God? They bow down to a statue that represents "fertility, life, women." The Bishop says no connections need to be made to Our Lady. Francis and the Vatican say it is Pachamama.

ML: The bishop also said, in as many words "it's not Pachamama".... so why are you insisting it is. You take his word it's not Our Lady but not his word it's not a pagan image. There were lots of things on that blanket. Were they bowing down to those things too?

ROTK: I insist it is because of Francis and the Vatican. You are saying we can not trust the Pope or the Vatican anymore in their own interpretations of their own events. The bishop says no connection needs to be made to Our Lady. So again, I ask, who are they bowing to? You said you need evidence it is an idol being worshipped. Since it is not Our Lady, who is it? And the other items were food offerings. Are you now admitting they bowed down to a statue that is not Our Lady and also bowed down to food? I don't see how that makes things any better.

ML: Why don't you ask them instead of assuming who they were bowing down to? They clearly are lookign to the sky moving their lips in prayer. That would indicate they had God on their mind. They bowed down. The statue happened to be in front of them. You're assuming a lot Joseph. Until you've asked them and know their heart, you are judging them without cause.

ROTK: It is unfair to say it is Our Lady when the Bishop says no connection needs to be made to her. You are not above a Bishop of the Amazon, or above Francis. My only point from the beginning was to show it is not fair to say the statue represents Our Lady of the Amazon. Which at least you have admitted now.

ML: "The bishop also said, in as many words "it's not Pachamama".... so why are you insisting it is. You take his word it's not Our Lady but not his word it's not a pagan image"

ROTK: The Bishop did not say "not Pachamama." He said it is a statue that represents fetility and life, and no connection needs to be made to Our Lady or a pagan element. The Vatican and Francis then came in and called it Pachamama by name. Perhaps they do not see Pachamama as "pagan." Either way, it is pretty clear cut. But I wouldn't keep insisting to others it is Our Lady when an Amazonian Bishop himself says no connection needs to be made to her, and Francis and the Vatican say it is Pachamama. We don't need to instruct the Vatican or the Bishops on how to interpret their own events. We just need to pray for them. Francis wrote in February 2020 in his Apostolic Exhortation Querida Amazonia, “It is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way, without necessarily considering it as idolatry. A myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to advantage and not always considered a pagan error." So he does not see the Pachamama statue as "pagan," which of course is false. But he and the Bishop also do not see it as representing Our Lady. So then, it is not Our Lady of the Amazon. It is just Pachamama which for them represents fertility, life, women. So the people bowed down to the Pachamama statue. Perhaps one or some of them thought it was Our Lady, it is just that it was not. The Bishop said it was not. Francis and the Vatican said it was Pachamama explicitly. So the people bowed down to a false idol, and Francis applauded the effort.